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Topic: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

THIS IS ALL IN MY OWN OPINION AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE VIEWS OR BELIEFS OF ANY OTHER DESIGNER. (although it may)

I know that this is probably well pointed out within the site, but I really hate the fact that people insist on paying such a low amount to very talented designers. I know that there are probably several places or people on the web that'll do a logo for you for like $20, but you'll end up with something along the lines of clip-art revised, that maybe 5 or 10 people already have. It's not like it's YOUR logo. More like it's anyone's who wants to pay for it.

If you want to charge less than $300 for a logo, think about this:

Most of the talent that you see went through some kind of training that took several years and thousands of dollars. They worked hard on projects and had long brutal hours of studying and competing to be the best at what they do. Concepts, thumbnails, sketches, and perfection go into every little logo that's produced. It takes hours to make something to brand your company for the rest of it's days.

You as the client must keep all of this in mind. It's not just a little symbol to which you identify your company with. IT IS YOUR COMPANY!! When people see that little symbol, they will know it's you, and in most cases that's the only way they know it's you.

You as the client must pay for all of this. You have to consider that you are not just paying for a logo, you are paying for all the time that designer put into learning this trade skill. You are paying for all the hours spent on perfecting your company's identity. This little symbol will make your company pull in more money and profit than the meager price you pay to have it made.

Here is something helpful:

• An entry level Graphic Designer should pull in anywhere from $25-30,000 per year. That's with just the education alone.

• Most designers should be paid at least $50-100 per hour.

• It takes at least 5-10 hours for a good logo. Or maybe some really good sketches and concepts.

• On average it can cost $500 for a logo, and that's not including owning the rights to it. (That's a whole other ball game.)

These are just some small pointers. I mean if you want to pay $40 for a logo fine. But all you'll get is $40 worth of work. That's what, 35-40 minutes worth of design? Not a good investment on your company's future identity.

Keep all these things in mind when hiring a designer. If you want clip-art, fine. If you want a sketch for a logo, fine. But if you want something that'll say something about you and your company, something that'll stand out in the crowd, you have to pay for it.

And you designers have to stay strong! I'm married with a son, and we have a ton of bills, but I refuse still, to be paid such a lousy amount for something I put all my efforts into. It may seem tempting to get $100 towards a bill, but by the time you finish the design, it may not seem like it was worth all the effort. My logos are my babies. I spend time and energy just thinking of what to do for a company. To get into the desire of the client for their company. I want to make a logo solely for them. No other company will fit with a logo I create. This is at least my goal.

Stay strong!

To you seeking the professional design:
Don't degrade our profession, Don't be a cheapskate.
J

Last edited by jmill (Jul 01 - 8:09 pm)

Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

Word.

Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

I agree with everything your saying, but that is capitalism.  Always seeking out the lowest possible costs, and when one designer decides to give everyone else suffers.

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Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

I'm glad you like it. It's really hard for me to refuse pay, but in the long run, I think it's better knowing that I never sold myself short. Thanks for the input.

J

Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

I echo your sentiments, jmill!

Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

I'm with you mate, but I find often things aren't that clear cut.

For example, I quoted £350 ($500?) for a logo, letterhead and one BC card design with 4 sets of details. I spent 3 evenings coming up with 3 logo concepts, then, on delivering them, they choose one, made one evening of refinments and it was signed off. By now I had a good relationship with the firm and was ready for the stationery design. At this point I get an email saying the company they are attached to have an inhouse designer who "was offering to do the artwork" for £200 and they didn't want me to "price myself out of the market". I'd already designed the logo, and despite being pissed of agreed to see the stationery through. The printer they selected was useless however, plus their company details kept changing as they ordered new mobile phones, so I've spent the best part of 9 evenings pandering to their changes and their piss poor print firm for a flat fee of £200. The job never started as a rip-off, but thats exactly what its become and I just want to see the back of it.

Now I know that I should have been more proffesional in my approach. Asked for money upfront and got them to sigh a contract. However I knew the people before hand, 2 of them are my friends. I guess my warning to the rest of the logoponders is that often a rip-off job wont look like one to begin with.

They asked me if I wanted to design the website for them as well. I politely declined.

Last edited by QuadMachine (Jul 16 - 10:44 am)

Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

Firstly - love the post Quad. Couldn't agree more.

Secondly - from my (alomst) 10 year career as a freelance web & logo designer, my #1 piece of advice is to require a 30% non-refundable deposit before work is started. This should at least cover your time costs if they bail (i've had quite a few of them).

Make sure you make it clear to them that it's non-refundable too just so they know you're serious.

http://www.cobaltcow.com | http://logopond.com/members/profile/showcase/3536
Influence is knowledge & knowledge is to be human - Me

Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

Wise advice cobalt. I got off the phone to them an hour ago and have levered another £50 out of their tight fists, so at least I'm seeing a bit more cash for my time.

You got any horror stories to share? (I love a bit of drama!)

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Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

I agree Quad. It isn't all that easy in this field. And cobalt, I use this method as well. It's just I hate asking people for money. I'm one of those people who used to get walked all over. Would you believe I did a logo for $45? Well it happened.

My advice is just as simple as cobalt's. Charge a percentage right off the bat. For example, with a 3 part project, charge 33%.

This is what I do. If I'm working on just a logo for like $400, I would tell them that I need half the money to start the project, and the other half to send the files. If $200 seems to be too much for them at one time, just say you'll cut it into 3rds. $130 to start, $130 to do further redesigns, and $140 to receive the files.

If they decide to bail on you, at least you got paid for the work you did. Try to stick to whatever method you use. Don't let them make excuses. If they say they can't pay you now, simply tell them you'll wait and be thinking about what to do for them until then.

I do this if I have a hard time giving a contract to a friend. It's like saying "I don't trust you" to some people. But remember that you do have to get used to charging anyone, and it's the best idea to get a contract signed.

I'm not saying everything is going to work perfectly. I need help sometimes too. I just think that by talking like this, you can brainstorm and come up with ideas as well.
J

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Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

Horror story: working as third party support for a marketing client I had a verbal agreement( i usually get a signed contract but after more than a year working with them I let it pass this time) with said client for $3,000, working with their client ( to cover the fact that they got the job by exaggerating their capabilities) I racked up over $10,000 in hours and work at the behest of the marketing firm saying that he would be able to ask for more money since it is obvious that we went far above and beyond ( I commuted to another city for a week, sometimes staying there till 3am.)

Of course at the end of it all amnesia set in and 'I am going to be able o ask for more money' became 'I may be able to get more money but our agreement is for $3,000'. Never saw any additional money.

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Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

I'm sorry to hear about that. I don't know what to say except get contracts signed and don't do more than you get paid for.

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Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

this might be a stupid question but... is there such a thing as a 'designers guild'?... would this at all be plausible... maybe if enough of us could get together... i dunno?

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Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

That's not a stupid question by any means. There is one that comes to mind. The Graphic Artist Guild.

www.gag.org

I own the book Pricing and Ethical Guidelines. A handy book.

On another note, the only thing about the guild is that it costs money to join. If you're just a beginner it can be expensive.

$30 application fee
$200 professional membership per year

That's if you're a designer. They also have fees if you're not a designer, but want to join anyway. They list the perks on their site:

    *  Members will receive the tenth edition of the Graphic Artists Guild Handbook: Pricing & Ethical Guidelines or their choice of any other business title from The Guild Bookshelf.
    * Group Health Insurance as well as disability plans may be available to members at favorable rates depending on location and availability of plan provider and coverage.
    * Members receive the award-winning national GuildNEWS and local chapter newsletters.
    * Members benefit from direct marketing assistance through job referral services, trade shows, and other activities.
    * Members benefit from substantial discounts on art supplies, page-rates in many illustration and design directories, long distance calls, shipping services, car rentals, hotel rooms and more.
    * Members can participate in portfolios.gag.org and receive discount web links and portfolio hosting.

These are definitely some good things to think about, but it'd be nice if maybe we could have some sort of free group? Something to just get all the beginners started on their way to success?

What do you all think?

Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

True true...
Mind if I forward this to the person funding my current projects?

Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

About the Graphic Artists Guild...
something doesn't make sense, because their website (http://www.gag.org/)
is horrendous...
Like taking salsa lessons from a cowboy...

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Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

Go ahead and forward it piksels. You can also add how awesome I am... just kidding. I'm really not like that.

Yeah, I noticed that the Guild's site leaves something to be desired. Especially since it's the "Graphic Artists Guild." I mean, don't they get enough money or have enough graphic designers to do a better site?

Oh well. They do have some tempting benefits. Who am I to say though? My site looks like crap. Let me know what your person thinks of this post.

J

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Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

AIGA also frowns upon spec work:

http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/position-spec-work

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Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

Wow! Thanks so much Darrel. I just downloaded that spec work file they had, and I must say,this is very handy for anyone who is having trouble communicating their ideas. I know how crappy spec work can be.

I'm a former member of sitepoint, so I know better than anyone how crappy it is. It's basically a place where people hold "contests" for designs of all sorts. I did it because I was just starting out as a designer, and I had no idea what I was doing. It wasn't until I came to this site that I had a new found respect for myself and quit sitepoint. Although I have no idea how to delete my account from them, I deleted all my stuff.

Let me just say this for anyone who does spec work. Just quit now. It degrades your talent and waters down this awesome profession. We have a trained eye and great talent for design. Don't let people take advantage of it by offering you, what looks like good pay.

In addition to Darrel's post, I have another link you should see:
http://www.no-spec.com/

I got it from this site somewhere. Let's keep helping each other okay. I'm happy you guys are participating in this post. Keep it up!

J

Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

Hey guys, I'm new to logopond but I can already see how much more helpful it is when compared to other design communities I'm part of. This thread is full of fantastic advice that will undoubtedly help me a lot. I'm a Design student, but I've been working as a freelance designer for a few years now. I'm sorry to say I've had my eye wiped by a few 'clients' in the past; owing to my own naivety and lack of experience. However I'm sure it'll never happen again, especially if I put these great ideas into practice. Thanks!

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Re: Crappy pay, crappy logo! Think twice cheapskates!

See guys! It's awesome that we talk about this stuff! That way we can help everyone who needs it. Don't be afraid to be bold okay!

I'll be posting my posts from here and some other stuff in my blog:
http://jmillgraphics.wordpress.com/

Keep up the posts, and I'm glad this was helpful to you brianburnsimd.
J